Murder of George Floyd Rooted in American Slave System – Gerald Horne

American police culture was built up to see black people as always on the verge of rebelling, and to treat them as criminal suspects in waiting. Gerald Horne on theAnalysis.news podcast with Paul Jay

Transcript

Paul Jay

Hi, I’m Paul Jay, and welcome to theAnalysis.news podcast. Gerald Horne is a historian who holds the John Jay and Rebecca Morris, chair of history and African-American studies at the University of Houston. He’s the author of many books, including The Apocalypse of Settler Colonialism, The Roots of Slavery, White Supremacy and Capitalism in 17th Century North America and the Caribbean. Thanks for joining us, Gerald..

Gerald Horne

Thank you for inviting me.

Paul Jay

The world has heard the names of George Floyd, Freddie Gray, Oscar Grant, Michael Brown and many, many others brutally murdered by police officers steeped in a culture of racism and demonization of the poor. As brutal as capitalism is for most working people around the world compared to other advanced economies, at least after World War Two, in the US capitalism seems even more savage, even in its response to the pandemic. Many advanced capitalist countries have done much better than the United States. Why? Why is that, Gerald? And let’s start with your reflections on the current situation in the streets and then talk about the roots of a culture that to a large part accepts the modern day lynching of black men.

Gerald Horne

Well, the current situation in the streets is rather historic. And in the United States we haven’t seen such massive protests since the assassination of Martin Luther King Jr. in April 1968. What’s even more remarkable are the attacks on state power, not only the confrontation in the White House within the last few days that led the man known as Bunker Boy. That is to say, the 45th U.S. president scurrying with his family, escorted by Secret Service agents, into the bowels of the White House into a so-called safe space where he could hide in case the protesters breached the security of the White House.

     But also the protesters in Columbus, Ohio, at the statehouse breached security there and burnt down the police precinct in Minneapolis, which was the precinct nearby where George Floyd was killed. So these attacks on state power are quite significant. Also significant is the outburst of protests globally, not only in Toronto and Auckland, New Zealand and Sydney, Australia and London, England and Berlin, Germany, but also the fact that a high level representative of the African Union in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia, called in the U.S. representative for urgent consultations concerning what’s going on with regard to people of African descent in this country. So this is a very profound turn of events. And I must say personally, that in the last 24 to 48 to 72 hours, I’ve been besieged by media requests from Iran and Turkey in particular, believe it or not. And I think that the Iranians will take up my suggestion that they press this case of George Floyd and a prosecution of black people for the United Nations Human Rights Commission. Now, with regard to historical roots, one of the more disappointing aspects in terms of following the commentary is that few of the commentators were being asked to make points about these events, make reference to slavery, number one, because that’s the key to unlock this question as to why it’s so repetitively a black people and particularly black men. That is to say that there has been slavery as regards many black people in North America longer than there’s been non slavery, and that during slavery, a certain culture was built up that tended to treat black lives as being cheap or worthless. But more than that, because slaves had a tendency to rebel the culture that was constructed here in North America. And of course, we have over 40 million black people in North America. I’m not even sure people either A, know that or B, know how we got here.

     But the culture that was built up was to see these black people, as always, on the verge of rebelling and to treat them as criminal suspects and waiting. And that led to, of course, the seeds of the first police departments, which were embedded in slave patrols, whose primary mission was to capture those Negroes who were lucky enough to escape the plantation. That’s point number one. And then point number two, which I’m happy to say is a point that’s at least entering the black mainstream, although not the U.S. mainstream, not even the left mainstream. And I’ll get to that in the second. And that point is that when the settlers here in North America revolted against British rule in 1776, a major impetus for that revolt was what was going on in London in terms of Somerset’s case in 1772, where England decided to abolish slavery. In England itself, there was a fear that that decision would leapfrog the Atlantic, jeopardizing the fortunes of a murderous rule of so-called founding fathers, including George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, Patrick Henry, the lawyer for slave owners, president number two, John Adams. And so rather than run that risk, they revolted. And of course, in my books, I’ve drawn an analogy between 1776 and what happened in 1965 in Southern Rhodesia, now Zimbabwe, where Ian Smith and his racist cronies rebelled against London because they thought London was moving towards African majority rule. And in fact, he said that he was walking in the footsteps of 1776. Now. I say it’s entered the black mainstream, because that thesis was reflected in the Pulitzer Prize winning writing of Nicole Hannah Jones of The New York Times, where she said as much. And I’m happy to say, not in her piece, but in other media has quoted me directly on this point. And this, of course, led to a firestorm. I mean, it was very interesting. Even though she won the Pulitzer Prize, there was a united front in the euro American community, ranging from so-called Marxist on the left to conservatives like George Will of The Washington Post on the right, upbraiding , excoriating, denouncing Nicole Hannah Jones.  But I’m happy to say that in the black community, it’s basically been a thesis that seems like common sense. And I think that ultimately that particular thesis will prevail, because I don’t think you can begin to understand this sort of pornographic violence that we’re seeing so repetitively with people being killed. And then the images being downloaded millions of times, not only with regard to George Floyd, but Eric Garner and too many others that I won’t mention. The only way to understand that is to understand this very peculiar presence of black people in the United States, because when I was living in Zimbabwe and writing that book on Zimbabwe, the racists in Zimbabwe, they were always chiding the United States and saying, “Why do you all have to lynch people?” Because, you know, these lynchings, they were like festivals. There will be thousands of euro Americans present. There would be photographs taken of the victim as they were being emulated and burnt to a crisp. And then this was the photographs and the postcards are still being circulated. You can find them in museums. And in fact, in this book I have coming out rather shortly on the 16th century, according to the sources, I should admit, I suggest that lynching, in part, was a religious sacrament, because this whole notion of racism and white supremacy as practiced in the Anglosphere, basically emerges from this very deep religious conflict between Protestant England and Catholic Spain, with London being able to soar past Catholic Spain, which after all, dates (?) Columbus. They have the first mover’s advantage.

     But the “defect,” unquote, of Catholic Spain was that it had a religious test for settlers who had to be a Catholic. That’s one of the reasons why you have Negro conquistadores, for example. That’s one of the reasons why, in Cuba, the Spanish were heavily dependent upon free Negroes from the inception, from the early 1500, which helps explain part of the differences between how blacks were treated in Cuba to this very day and how they’re treated on the mainland of North America.

     But then London moved from religion or religious tests for settlers to a Pan European project. You could be an Irish Catholic. You could be a Scottish Catholic. You could be Jewish. Even though London had expelled the Jewish population in 1291, two centuries before Spain did in 1492. But they were an underdog. And so they had to adapt. And they came up with this concept of whiteness. And Spain was enslaving, not only Indios and Africans, but also Filipinos. There were tens of thousands of recalled Spain had seized what we call the Philippines, named after King Philippe or King Philip in the fifteen hundreds. And so for decades, they were bringing Filipinos to Mexico to be enslaved. And of course, the other power of that time, the Ottoman Turks, they were enslaving Africans, Europeans, whomever. You know, they had a sort of laissez faire taking on all comers when it comes to enslavement, whereas the English of the Anglosphere, they tend to focus quite tightly on Africans, which was the counterpoint, if you like, to whiteness, and then not only enslaving Africans, but then drawing up these ridiculous rules like the one drop rule. I mean, you could look like Madonna. But if you’ve had any African ancestry, you were a slave. Which, of course, broaden the base for slavery, and then trying to expel the free Negro population to Liberia and Sierra Leone. So you have to understand that history is in order to understand George Floyd. 

Paul Jay

In your book you mention, you use the term the creation of whiteness as a toxic racial identity and creating a kind of new aristocracy. Why does that continue in the culture to such an extent?

Gerald Horne

Well, one reason I think is that whiteness, as the social scientists tend to say, it’s become somewhat invisible, meaning that people sort of take it for granted, and it’s sort of normative. I think that’s one of the reasons, which which really gets my dander up, as they say, which is that you have many of these euro Americans—they’re always talking about black people being enmeshed in an identity politics. You know, if you have your nice black lives matter to try to keep the state from murdering you in the street like a dog.

     And yet a lot of these other identities are really a reaction to this creation of whiteness. You know, where you had this united front of those were warring on the shores of Europe, English Protestants versus Irish Catholics, Irish Ulsterman, Protestants versus Irish Catholics, Jewish versus Christian, German versus French, Russian versus Pole, northern Italian versus southern Italian, Serbs versus Croats. Then magically, as they crossed the Atlantic, they all become white. You know, it’s a sort of rebranding exercise that Madison Avenue would blush at. And yet it’s become sort of normalized and people sort of passively accept this identity without any sort of interrogation. AlthoughI should say, in all fairness, that there’s been a fair amount of writing and research to which I am indebted concerning this concept of whiteness. But I don’t think that once again, a lot of the academic writing has even penetrated the left movement, even though many of the academic writers on the subject come out of the left movement.And I think at some point in the future, a historian, perhaps cynically, perhaps not, might conclude that this identity was accepted in such a normative fashion because so many people benefited from it. After all, it was that sort of whiteness identity politics that led to the seizing of a continent, liquidation  of Native Americans, even Lincoln, he in the middle of a civil war, he executed dozens of Native Americans and, of course, continued seizing their land, creating these land grant universities that still exist, in the United States, which would only educate people of European descent.

     And then in terms of the history, as you know, black people generally were not allowed to go into archives until maybe a few decades ago. And so we were not able to get into the records to try to reconstruct this history. And I guess your American “friends,”were too busy basking in the glow of whiteness to take on that sort of research. So it’s only been quite recently that this research was taken on, although once again, I should say, in all fairness, that WBB Dubois, the great black intellectual, maybe one hundred and twenty odd years ago, began writing about whiteness. And a lot of the writing and the essence of whiteness studies really comes out of the writings of Dubois. 

Paul Jay

 There have been times, especially in the building of trade unions in the thirties, when there was a real class solidarity; some of the leading organizers of the industrial unions in the thirties were black.

Gerald Horne

Yes, I know. 

Paul Jay

And in the auto industry it was black trade unionists, together with white trade unionists that fought against machine guns together. Do you see how that will develop now? Because, you know, this idea that the role of whites is just to be the ally of blacks in struggle. I understand the instinct of black activists and the experience of how liberal whites have taken over so many organizations in the 60s. And there does need to be organizations that are black, led by blacks. On the other hand there’s  got to be a broad front developing against this growing fascism. And the sinking into deep depression there. For the first time, whole sections of the white working class that never imagined they would be in poverty are going to be in poverty. There’s no way this is could go well for large sections, including large sections of people that voted for Trump in the working class. What do you see the prospects for that?

Gerald Horne

Well, I think you’re correct on all levels. I mean, with regard to the 1930s, for example, which was the zenith of trade union organizing in the United States, you had numerous examples of interracial, multiracial organizing. If you look at the history of the National Maritime Union, for example, I wrote a book about a black Jamaican who was a founder of the (?) NMU, Ferdinand Smith, who, of course, eventually was deported back to the island where he became involved in independence struggles there, culminating in Jamaican independence in 1962. And then there’s Harry Bridges, a well-born in Melbourne, Australia, who migrates as a youth to the San Francisco Bay Area, leads the San Francisco General Strike of 1934, which leads to the formation of the International Longshore and Warehouse Union, which is still in existence. Not only organize the docks from Seattle to San Diego, but also this union was pivotal in organizing  Hawaii, which until, say, the 1930s was sort of a citadel of white supremacy. It was an apartheid land. But once Harry Bridges and the ILWU arrived there, it became and has become under U.S. colonial administration. I might add, to this very day,  the most progressive state within the United States of America and that model  is not unique to the 1930s. I mean, you can go back, for example, to the St. Louis general strike of 1877. Of course, the U.S. Civil War, 1861, 1865, the abolitionist movement before that. Now, certainly, we’re faced with a very unique and peculiar moment. I mean, it’s amazing the speed and velocity with which the bottom has fallen out of the United States of America. It basically happened in a matter of weeks. And I think that it’s left a number of people sort of dazed and stunned. It’s almost like getting a sucker punch. You know, you’re walking into the subway and somebody suddenly hits you in the head. You don’t know what happened to you. But I do sense a kind of recovering. And the recovery, I think, is manifested as we speak with regard to these protests concerning George Floyd, which has become a vehicle to express discontent with all manner of issues. And I would say the same holds true for the demonstrations abroad in solidarity with the demonstrations here in North America. But unfortunately, there’s a downside, which is that these demonstrations might wind up being a super spreader in terms of the Corona virus. It’s very unfortunate you have to organize in the midst of a pandemic. And I’m reluctant to speculate on what hospitals will be overrun within two weeks. 

Paul Jay

Yeah, it’s really dangerous. It’s dangerous in another way, too, because, you know, as much as one subjectively gets a kick out of seeing so much fire all around the White House, the iconic image of this is buildings burning down, including many of whom are actually in neighborhoods that poor black people live. I know from from the past, I did a lot of coverage of the Toronto G20 where the police there arrested a thousand people, and they deliberately left the police car out to be set on fire, probably by a police provocateur who was a cop or paid by the cops. And then Freddie Gray in Baltimore. I was you know, I was living in Baltimore for eight years, and I was covering all the Freddie Gray events. And it came out very clearly that the police deliberately laid back and let the CVS store be torched. In fact, the union itself accused the chief of police in writing of deliberately holding back so that the place could burn, telling police ahead of time that they needed the protesters to look like the villains before they started cracking heads.

     I’m sure much of this, the fires that are being set and such,  are part of the kind of spontaneous expression of anger. But they’re also, very possibly, part of this as well, a deliberate attempt to characterize the protests in a way that scare the hell out of a lot of people and justify what Trump wants to do next, bring in the army and put people in jail for 10 years and create a kind of police state or more of a police state, because people should understand in poor black communities, it’s  usually like a police state in  “normal” times. But that being said, it’s a dangerous moment that Trump can use in his own nefarious way. 

Gerald Horne

Well, I’m afraid you’re right. And fortunately there has been some reporting on that. Michelle Goldberg in her column, The New York Times, linked to another column that talked about the so-called Tougaloo boys, this ultra-right movement that supposedly is using these protests to try to stoke what they call, a “race war.” And then there have been all these other reports, very disturbing reports, about provocateurs of various sorts. And certainly at his notorious speech, I believe it was June one, twenty twenty, Mr. Trump and then some of his first words to those assembled, spoke of himself as being the president of Law and Order, trying to evoke memories of Richard Nixon, who won on that platform in 1968, running against unrest at Berkeley, unrest  in Watts,  unrest in Detroit and Newark. And in a sense, Mr. Trump wants to do a replay of that. But I think part of the disturbing aspect of that, the rather vulgar presentation by Mr. Trump was how he used the military to rout and roust peaceful demonstrators across the street from the White House so that he could have a photo opportunity in front of a boarded up church and hold up a Bible to make a rather crude and blatant appeal to his so-called Christian evangelical followers. But even more disturbing is that the head of U.S. military had on battle fatigues as he cleared the path for Mr. Trump. And as they kettled demonstrators and pat men on horseback in all sorts of sophisticated military tactics. And this is in the light of the fact that routinely in police departments, the Pentagon, the U.S. military sends grenade launchers, armored personnel carriers to urban police departments.  And it makes you wonder who were they trying to police with these warfighting tools, not to mention the fact that what’s been going on in terms of the use of flashbang tear gas, you would think that this is the West Bank, sadly enough, and not these urban centers in the United States of America.

     And then the other point is that I’m afraid to say that Mr. Trump has more latitude in Washington, D.C., which still has a heavily black community that is quite upset by the George Floyd killing, and that Washington, D.C. might wind up being a guinea pig for the kinds of military interventions that will then be spreading from the East Coast to the West Coast.

Paul Jay

And that’s partly because Trump does not need the permission of a governor in Washington, D.C., to use the military, whereas in other states, in the states, governors have to ask for military assistance. Now, on the other hand, if he declares an emergency because of the apprehension of insurgency or whatever the language is, then he doesn’t even need the permission of a governor.

     There’s another twist to this. His use of the word domestic terrorism. And I don’t. I’m going to make a point I haven’t heard somewhere else for a while. But remember a few years ago, and this was during Obama’s time during the amendment to the NDAA, the National Defense Authorization Act, which they do every year to get their money, they put in a clause that allows for the army to intern people, essentially hold people without habeas corpus, without any due process. And if you support the Taliban, al-Qaeda or terrorism, I believe was the language. So if they start calling what’s going on in the streets, domestic terrorism, they actually have some kind of legal basis clause to actually start rounding people up.

Gerald Horne

Well, as you know, a precursor for that has already begun as a motion with this invocation of Antifa,  which has become the latest bugaboo for the right wing, the so-called anti fascist movement, who are comprised of what we are told are Anarchists,  although there are some question as to whether or not Mr. Trump can designate a domestic formation like Antifa as a terrorist organization. But given the fact that he has been so energetic, along with the Grim Reaper, Mitch McConnell, in appointing compliant and pliable federal judges,  and not to mention Supreme Court judges like Neil Gorsuch and Brett Kavanaugh, it’s no telling what mental acrobatics these judges will endure in order to serve up on a silver platter some judicial opinion that Mr. Trump desires.

     So it’s obvious that we’re in a very dangerous and perilous moment. And part of the problem is, is that we don’t have the kind of organization right now in terms of the militant opposition that the moment calls for, which I totally understand, because historically, when militant organization has erupted like the Black Panther Party, they’re bludgeoned into submission, the leaders are jailed, the leaders like Fred Hampton in Chicago on December 4th, 1969, are killed in their beds. And therefore, this has led to what we have now, which is a sort of leaderless resistance, so to speak, because Black Lives Matter is highly decentralized, and it prides itself on that. I think it’s made of a virtue of what some might consider to be a necessity. But the problem is it’s difficult to route provocateurs without a ?DUP organization. It’s difficult to play without a DUP ?organization. It’s difficult to continue to mobilize and make outreach to our friends overseas and to the press without some sort of organizing framework. So we’re going to have to find a way to square that circle. That is to say, we know that once you have any kind of semblance of centralized organization, the authorities jump on it with both feet. But at the same time, we need some sort of organization. With all due respect to Black Lives Matter, 

There needs to be, I think, and the only place I can see this having the potential of having a force, and I say this with some trepidation because they don’t usually play this role. But its the unions. The unions really do have diverse membership. I mean, take place unions like SEIU, I think is majority black now. The leadership isn’t, but the membership is. And if you look across the board, they have money, they have resources. They actually can get in contact with significant sections of the working class. I know the unions are way smaller than they used to be, but if you look at the role the nurses played in the Sanders campaign and communications workers like two or three unions, I don’t think there would have been much of a Sanders campaign without them. So this fight, I think within the unions, for the unions to start actually acting like, you know, workers organizations and not just subservient appendages to the Democratic Party, I think is going to be a critical step in what comes next, because I think there really has to be a broad front organization of workers and other stratum of the society. Yes, the elections are coming. Maybe, who knows? I think it’s a real question whether the elections will be postponed, either because of the pandemic or because of what’s going on in the streets or because he starts a provocation with Iran or all of the above.

    But one way or the other, there’s got to be a national progressive organization outside the Democratic Party, because that’s the only thing that’s actually national right now, that has any kind of strength. 

Gerald Horne

Well, I agree. But sadly and unfortunately, perhaps as a coda to our conversation, is that one of the places defaced and attacked in Washington, D.C. was the headquarters, the AFL/CIO. So there you have it. And, you know, I would not have participated in that action. I would not have recommended that action. But I understand that action because despite their potential and potential, by definition means you haven’t done it yet. Despite their potential, the  AFL, CIO, historically, I mean, it comes out of these anti-communist purges that led to the men I just mentioned a moment or two ago, the ouster or the harassment, Ferdinand Smith and Harry Bridges. In my book of Southern Africa I talk about this moment in Portugal in 1974, in the midst of the Portuguese revolution, which led to the ultimately the liberation of Angola, Namibia, Mozambique and South Africa, that the CIA is about to throw in the towel after the revolution as a motion. But it’s the AFL CIO leadership that shows up and says, “Man up!”  This battle is not over.

So this whole AFLCIO policy of going around the world beating up on progressive unions so that you can be runaway shops and jobs and be exported to these low wage havens is almost a textbook definition of lunacy and backwardness. So I agree with you in principle, but it’s going to be a steep mountain to climb.

Paul Jay

Well, everything is. There ain’t no mountain that’s  not going to be a steep mountain to climb here. But we’ve got to pick our mountains. I mean, just the unions to a large extent, became just part of the state apparatus a long time ago. Samuel Gompers I was seeing, was actually part of the American delegation to negotiate the Versailles Treaty.This goes back quite a ways. The merging of the unions into the state. But there is a struggle going on in the unions. There’s a class struggle going on. They’re progressive workers in many unions that are very, you know, are in struggle against the leadership. And then there is some leadership of some of the unions, which isn’t bad, is fairly progressive. And I think, you know, I know on theAnalysis, I’m going to start really trying to dig into, you know, where things are at in this struggle in the unions. 

Gerald Horne

Good. 

Paul Jay

And, of course, the campaign to elect progressives to Congress and at various other levels has had some success and has some motion. More  may come out of this current moment.

Gerald Horne

Well, let’s hope so, because I think that if we are to be rescued, unions are gonna have to play a leading role. 

Paul Jay

Yeah, you know, I’m not in Baltimore now, but I lived there for about 9 years, and I don’t know if this is true in other cities, but in Baltimore, there’s quite a prevailing force there amongst black activists that they, that whites should just stay the hell out.

I think, you know, that whites should be like a subordinate ally. But the idea of building a broad front that includes white workers and so on, is kind of just off the table. Does that exist in other cities with much strength? Because if that’s the case, then we’re not going to get very far in terms of building a real united front.

Gerald Horne

Well, I think it is the case, but of course, it comes out of a bitter history. I think we were just talking a moment ago, a lot of these people define us as white. You know, they don’t even want to recognize that this is a historical construction. They acted like some sort of normalized identity passed down from the heavens, for example, which then helps to obscure their “white chauvinism” ??. And by the way, of course, isn’t it ironic that the man accused in the George Floyd murder is named Chauvin?

     And of course, that word has been bequeathed to us from a alleged French maniacally patriotic officer in the late 18th century. And of course, now we have a sho nuff white chauvinist who is going to be in the dock. And I think there’s some irony there indeed. But I think that once again, you know, I would be remiss if I did not mention my own experience working with the union that was called Martin Luther King’s favorite union. That was his term. The hospital workers in New York City who are not only the so-called frontline workers are really taking it on the chin in the epicenter of the pandemic in Manhattan and Brooklyn and the Bronx in particular, but also historically has been a left leaning force. You can even, I’m afraid to say, see their influence in some of the rhetoric that’s coming out of Governor Cuomo of late, where he referred to racism as being chronic, endemic and institutional. After Robert O’Brien, the national security adviser for the 45th U.S. president, said on national television that they’re just a few bad apples. You know, the old bad apples line, which then Governor Cuomo and I would say probably under prodding by the hospital workers union, perhaps if Governor Cuomo stopped slashing Medicaid, we’ll really have something to pat him on the back about.

Paul Jay

 So just to end up, you know, there’s some debate on the left. And some interesting, you know, fairly prominent progressive saying that this coming November election that the Democrats and especially Biden, you know, he’s not any better than Trump and that people should kind of just forget about it. I’ll sit it out and focus on movement, building and such. What do you make of that?

Gerald Horne

Well, I understand the sentiment, but I don’t necessarily agree with it. I was telling a reporter just this afternoon that I’m sympathetic to the idea that one can go for talking horse rather than see Mr. Trump have another four years in the White House. And of course, the tragedy is, and this is what I think many people in the black community find upsetting, is that sometimes there seems to be this assumption that Mr. Trump is just this individual wreaking havoc, whereas if you look at his poll numbers, they rarely dipped below 40. And that, as of today, you cannot say definitively that he will be defeated. And I don’t think it’s simply because Biden is a historically weak candidate. I think that historically to come full circle, one of the weaknesses of the left is that it has made a mis estimate of the correlation of forces in this settler state that then had a counter revolution to come into being. And there was the kind of process whereby those who could don the cloak of whiteness could then seize Native American land. And with a little luck, and a lot of pluck, they could then have that land stocked with the labor of enslaved Africans. And there is, when you talk about making America great again, there’s this lingering sentiment that rarely gets articulated, that that similar process could recur, not only looting leading to the looting and plundering and pillaging of people of color in this country, but also abroad, which, of course, then would lead us into the present confrontation of China, which has overtones not only of geopolitical supremacy, but given the United States troubled, star-crossed relationship with people of African descent. Need I mentioned Vietnam, Korea, the dropping of atomic bomb on Japan, that this is a very combustible situation that we’re facing in the United States, and some of our friends on the left, you know, that whole historical landscape I just painted, it hasn’t seemed to have dawned on them. And so leads them to this very naive conclusions. And so I think we need to take this election very seriously, and we should do everything in our power to make sure that Donald Trump is not re-elected. 

Paul Jay

I’m with you. Thanks very much for joining us, Gerald 

Gerald Horne

Good luck to you.

Paul Jay

 And thank you for joining us on theAnalysis.News podcast.

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