On Reality Asserts Itself with Paul Jay: Glen Ford addresses the question whether black Americans constitute a nation, and if so, what is their role in the movement of the whole people. This is an episode of Reality Asserts Itself, produced December 25, 2013, with Paul Jay.
On Reality Asserts Itself, Glen Ford, executive editor of Black Agenda Report, talked with Paul Jay about the role of black politics within the black community and the nation as a whole.
Ford began with a discussion of two major tendencies in black politics.
âOne is the self-determinationist tendency, that is, the political tendency that says black folks have every right to organize among each other for their own goals, regardless of what the larger society, i.e. white folks, think, and that that is legitimate,â said Ford.â
âThere is also what I call the representationist strain, which says that black folks should have representation at all strata of the general society and that this can be achieved, and byâprogress should be measured by the extent to which there are blacks in business, or blacks in politics, blacks in all of the various strata, and that this does not require any transformation of society.â
âThese two tendencies coexist in conflict in every black brain,â said Ford. âAnd they are at war sometimes with each other. And I think that all black politics actually flows from this twoness, one the imperative to build a world that is worthy of black people, and the other to achieve black representation in the larger society.â
Ford and Jay also discussed the necessity of black leadership not just in black communities, but for the nation as a whole.
âIf the black community is not organized in ways that reflect the progressive character of our people, then there is no possibility of an effective left movement for the country as a whole,â said Ford. âSo the fate of progressive politics in the United States is dependent on this internal struggle in black America between those who want transformation of society and those who have attached themselves to the powers that be.â
STORY TRANSCRIPT
PAUL JAY, SENIOR EDITOR, TRNN: Welcome back to The Real News Network. Iâm Paul Jay, and this is Reality Asserts Itself on The Real News Network. Weâre continuing our series of interviews with Glen Ford, the executive editor of Black Agenda Report.
Thanks for joining us again, Glen.
GLEN FORD, EXECUTIVE EDITOR, BLACK AGENDA REPORT: Thanks for the invite.
JAY: And once again, if you want to know more about Glenâs biography, thereâs stuff down here beneath the video player. But watch part one and part two. Itâs kind of all about his biography.
But letâs start talking a little bit more about todayâs politics. And thereâs a phrase you use, self-determination, self-determinist. And Iâm not quite sure whether that means for you that itâs connected with the concept of sort of black nations. You know. And in the history of American politics thereâs been this concept even of a geographically cut out black nation in the South. When you use it, what does it mean?
FORD: Well, Iâm of the school of thought that black Americans do constitute a nation. Itâs not necessarily connected to a land base, although black folksâ originsâand grew into a people in, of course, the slave states in the South. But the idea that a people must have a designated land area in order to be a nation, it would logically follow that if you take away that land, they are no longer a nation. And, well, that doesnât make sense. You canât denationalize a people simply by driving them off the land or their migration away from the land.
JAY: You could actuallyâyou know, as a Canadian, I can see you can somewhat compare it to Quebec in a way. I mean, you know, a population are, you know, either sent to or immigrate to or, in terms of pioneer, come to Quebec, and theyâre essentially an extension of France. But over hundreds of years, it becomes the nation of Quebec. Theyâre no longer what they were when they arrived.
FORD: Thatâs right. And black America has a very, very unique history in terms of the diaspora, and it is over a period of generations that this unique people develop their own way of looking at the world, as all other people do, their own common reference points, their own internal dynamic in terms of creating leadership that has legitimacy, all of the characteristics that other national groupings share.
Black America hasâthere are basically two tendencies that have been in conflict ever since thereâs been something that you could called black America. One is the self-determinationist tendency, that is, the political tendency that says black folks have every right to organize among each other for their own goals, regardless of what the larger society, i.e. white folks, think, and that that is legitimate.
There is also what I call the representationist strain, which says that black folks should have representation at all strata of the general society and that this can be achieved, and byâprogress should be measured by the extent to which there are blacks in business, or blacks in politics, blacks in all of the various strata, and that this does not require any transformation of society.
Now, these are not two warring camps (and never have been) in black America with the self-determinationists lined up on one side of the room and the representationists lined up on the other. Actually, these two tendencies coexist in conflict in every black brain. And they are at war sometimes with each other. And I think that all black politics actually flows from this twoness, one the imperative to build a world that is worthy of black people, and the other to achieve black representation in the larger society.
JAY: âCause it does have to be both, doesnât it?
FORD: Well, in fact, one struggles on both levels.
And during the time of segregation, there was very little conflict between the two. That is, since black people were shut out almost totally from political office, shut out almost totally from business, shut out of white society entirely in this American apartheid system, then there was no conflict. Once the black movement opened doors so that black people could become involved in the corporate world, could become mayors and big political heavy hitters, then the contradictions between these two tendencies become clearer.
JAY: Well, I was about to say this also has a class character to this question, âcause itâs one thing to seek representation in the corporate world or the world of elite politics, you know, this two-party system, and you could even become president. Itâs one thing to have that. Itâs another thing to have oppositional groups that are not only black, that areâyou know, that include all people who you would think have an interest to fight the system, which will be made up of whites and Hispanics and blacks. So that issue of representation also exists in that front, does it not?
FORD: If having black faces in high places is the measure of black progress, then the attainment of a black president is the highest goal that we could possibly achieve or aspire to. But if black self-determination is the goal, then the disenfranchisement of Detroit and in fact half of the black population of Michigan shows us to be at a nadir of black struggle by that kind of measure.
JAY: But what Iâm getting at is that this issue ofâlet me give you concrete, âcause I see this inâyou know, Iâm new to Baltimore, but I can see it happening here, and Iâve seen it in other places, where the idea of self-determination in black organizations, when youâre talking in the oppositional amongst the people, not amongst the elites, can have a kind of thingâcreate a kind of politics where you have, like, white-left politics over here and black-left politics over here and not a heck of a lot of cooperation in between, a few organizations where you find black and white leadership, but certainly less now, I think, than there was in the 1960s. And what Iâm saying is that this issue of self-determination has a different character based on class, that to become president, Iâm not sure what that achieved for African-Americans to get a black president. I know you argue it may have been almost a step back rather than a step forward in terms of the effect on peopleâs preparedness to fight, but when youâre talking amongst oppositional forces itâs a different question, isnât it?
FORD: Well, first of all, we still have a very deeply segregated society. So if weâre talking about black Baltimore, weâre talking about a segregated city. And so of coarse the organizations that are fighting for the various neighborhoods in Baltimore, which are black neighborhoods, are going to be producing essentially all-black organizations. That is to be expected.
If weâre talking about diversity as some kind of goal unto itself, I donât think that thatâs necessarily accepted as being the standard for organizing. You move people where they are. And if we are basically in a very segregated society, weâre going to have and should have organizations that reflect that reality.
JAY: Oh, no question. But Iâll give an example. We were having a conversation the other day about an organization that wants to try to influence the outcome of particular school, and they use the phraseâsome of the people use the phraseââcause I know within the organization thereâs debate about thisâthere should be black control of the school. And so I asked, well, why isnât it community control of the school? And one reason is that the city council is black. The person whoâs standing in nowâtheyâre looking for a new head of the department responsible for schools, but that personâs black. And if itâs just a question of black control of the schools, there kind of is black control of the school, because you have a black elite here that has these political positions. Community saysâthe people in the communityâand there probably is 95 percent black people in that community, although I think there is a growing Hispanic population. Iâm not sure if thereâs a poor whiteânot much, but in that particularâ.
FORD: And if that community is not choosing the people who in fact control the schools, then we donât have black control. We just have black folks who are in nominal positions of power. But there is not black power.
JAY: Not if you add a class character to it.
FORD: Not if you add just a popular character to it.
JAY: Well, theyâwell, I mean, not many people voted, but they voted.
FORD: If the 95 percent black community was actually empowered, you would logically have black folks in charge, but they would be folks who were representing that community, not black folks who were chosen by, letâs say, the bankers to put a black face on banker rule of the community. And we can make that analogy going all the way up to the presidency.
JAY: Yeah. I mean, butâso then whatâs stopping that?
FORD: Actually, thereâs no contradiction, and I think itâs a false dichotomy.
JAY: No, I mean, why arenâtâ. No, no. Iâm saying then why arenât blackâlike, in a city like BaltimoreâI mean, youâre not from here, but I donât think itâs too dissimilar in other places, maybe, but there isnât much going on other than the official candidates in the official party machine, and there isnât much of a challenge to them.
FORD: Yes. Almost all black political activity has been sucked up into the Democratic Party. And even if all the operatives in a ward or most of them in the city itself are black, the Democratic Party is beholden to other forces in society, cannot move without the okay of those other forces. And so even if you seem to have a black Democratic Party on the march, theyâre marching to somebody elseâs tune.
JAY: Let me go back to one point you made earlier. I mean, I think youâre completely correct. In a majority black city, and you start dealing with local issues, youâre going to have majority if not completely black organizations, that is, the people who are being affected. But Iâm talking about a need for when youâre taking on broader issues or if you actually want to deal with state-wide politics, you know, there is going to be a need for united fronts, thereâs going to be a need for organizations that are not all black if you want to win. I mean, you cannot control, for example, the state of Maryland just with a black organization. Even in the city of Baltimore, especially if you include the county, thereâs a large nonblack population, and thereâs a lot of people who have a lot of interest to try to change the situation as well. And I donât think thereâs any doubt African-Americans are suffering the most in the situation, but there are a lot of other people suffering too.
FORD: Sure. And, you know, letâs forget about the complexional aspects of this. Black America is the most left-leading constituency in the United States.
JAY: Yeah, without a doubt.
FORD: The social justice issue has always been central to black politics, but that does not mean that there is not conflict. And the conflict stems from the basic social justice progressivism of black folks in the rank-and-file and those leaders who have been chosen and given access to the implements of at least nominal power by forces outside of the community. So we have to wage constant struggle within the community not to just have black faces in place, but to have democracy within this black nation. And if we have democracy, then we will have a kind of representation that is quite to the left of the rest of America.
JAY: And does that force, if you have this as this process unfoldsâand I think eventually it has toâdoes not this force have to help lead the whole rest of the society?
FORD: By definition. If weâre talking about a takeover of the state of Maryland, the black component of that coalition, if it is actually reflective of the constituency, should be the most progressive element of that coalition. It should be the driving force for whatever progressive value that coalition has.
JAY: Yeah, âcause, I mean, thatâs some of the conversations Iâm getting into here as Iâm trying to understand the politics here is that, you know, the best and brightest and, to my mind, most progressive of the African-American community, they have to start imagining that theyâre going to be the leaders of the whole society.
FORD: Well, Dr. Kingâ.
JAY: It doesnât mean they donât also organize as a people, but they also have to organize and be leaders of the whole people.
FORD: Thatâs what Dr. King was talking about when he said that black folksâand Iâm paraphrasing in hereâhave the burden of having to be the soul of America. And he saw it as a burden that we not only have our internal struggle with our Uncle Toms of old (and we have different names for the now), but there is also the fact that if the black community is not organized in ways that reflect the progressive character of our people, then there is no possibility of an effective left movement for the country as a whole. So the fate of progressive politics in the United States is dependent on this internal struggle in black America between those who want transformation of society and those who have attached themselves to the powers that be.
JAY: Alright. To be continued. Thanks very much for joining us. Thank you, Glen.
FORD: Thank you.
JAY: And thank you for joining us on Reality Asserts Itself on The Real News Network.
